fat etiquette?

[keryx]

So, firecat posted about this old Fat Girl Breakdown article "fat etiquette for the non-fat". As always, her comments raise the level of the thing she comments upon. But read both.

On one level I like the idea of guidelines for allies. On another level, though, I loathe the very concept. I have a problem talking about a lot of the things cited as needs for "fat etiquette" as being fat-specific, really. Anyone might not be comfortable walking fast or in a certain position for whatever reason that isn't glaringly visible to you. It's good etiquette in general to create an environment where people know it's okay to ask for what they need, where you don't assume everyone will just blend in. That feels, to me, better than trying to make a judgement about what someone will need based off one fact of their appearance.

But maybe the problem with that is people in general aren't comfortable making demands in areas where they aren't "normal" - we like to "fit". So telling people what they need to do to make sure other people feel they fit okay... um, okay. I guess we might need that.

There was a good example of a need for this etiquette at a work event recently - we played a game that involved everyone putting on an item of clothing and taking it back off. Really, this is an activity that could make a lot of people uncomfortable for various reasons, but I think it was probably most obviously weird for people who were much smaller or larger than the object. And it could have been eliminated entirely, if the people who arranged the game had thought of size and comfort - if they had read the fat etiquette rules.

The "don't say you're fat if you're not" thing, that intrigues me. Is it actually about body dysmorphia? Or is it that people use "fat" to mean they feel "bad"?

Comments

[peregrin8.livejournal.com]

I appreciated the guidelines because some of them would not have occurred to me. I have gradually caught on to the fact that most people are not car-free citydwellers and don't rush around at my usual walking pace, regardless of their size or fitness level. But some of the other physical parameters of life I am used to ignoring, like the booth vs. table thing. And as a non-member-of-the-oppressed-group, I should be learning some of this stuff on my own instead of assuming the members-of-the-oppressed-group in my life will educate me all the time, yes?

The body dysmorphia question is a tough one because there is such a barrage of media messages that all women are "too fat" and ugly and bad and have insufficiently white teeth and really, how dare we even go out in public without whichever product is currently being advertised? I think a lot of smaller women do equate "fat" with "bad," at least for our own bodies, even when we simultaneously recognize that this is a ridiculous and destructive notion. Even when I know that just because I'm on the first day of my period does not mean I have magically changed in size, nor would it diminish me as a person if I had, I still have to fight those thoughts.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the reason specific things chafed me was that I'm really hesitant to associate any preference or ability with simply Being Fat. And if you handed those guidelines over to a random non-fat ally, it would be very easy for them to draw what I think are anti-fat conclusions. It's iffy; I think comfort and ability are things people should consider all the time, no matter what the object of their consideration looks like, but... eh, I dunno.

I may have mostly gotten past the fat=bad paradigm, but I still feel the my skin/my hair/my body is WRONG feeling. It's not about fat, but I think most women experience various degrees of that pressure. From a fat libber perspective, I want that not to be labeled "fat", but that doesn't take the issue away, does it?

[peregrin8.livejournal.com]

It's iffy; I think comfort and ability are things people should consider all the time, no matter what the object of their consideration looks like, but... eh, I dunno.

hmm. I think the chaos/complexity of everyday life prevents that to some extent. If I've never dealt with (or heard about) a person who has trouble doing a certain thing, it's very hard to see that thing as even being an issue. For instance, until I read that thread you linked to, it had never in my 36 years occurred to me that there might be folks whose bodies were physically pained by the act of walking too slowly. I still don't exactly get how that works, but now I know that the possibility exists.

[peregrin8.livejournal.com]

I may have mostly gotten past the fat=bad paradigm, but I still feel the my skin/my hair/my body is WRONG feeling. It's not about fat, but I think most women experience various degrees of that pressure. From a fat libber perspective, I want that not to be labeled "fat", but that doesn't take the issue away, does it?

Yes, exactly, that WRONG feeling. From a women's libber perspective, I want very much to take that issue away!

[firecat]

Great comments.

So far, a lot of people who've read the article have picked on the "Don't say you're fat if you're not" guideline because of course there's no single meaningful definition for "fat" (the closest is BMI, and that's pretty much bullshit).

But no one has mentioned that a lot of people - mostly women, although men more and more these days - make comments about their weight strictly as part of a semi-scripted social interaction ("I'm so fat." "No you're not, I'm fat." "No you're not...") Which is fine when most of the people taking part are the same size, but if someone is a lot bigger or smaller, then it can get uncomfortable for that person. And I think a lot of people don't realize that.

[peregrin8.livejournal.com]

Do you know about this book Fat: The Anthropology of an Obsession"? There's one chapter that looks at these "I am so fat!" interactions among teenage girls, and one "rule" identified by the anthropologist is that the "I am so fat!" ritual only occurs among the girls who aren't at all fat.

[firecat]

OOH! (*Requesting book from library*)

I'm not a teenage girl any more, but when I was one, I was subject to many "I am so fat!" rituals, and I was fat. So if the author is right, the world has changed.

(As a middle-aged woman, I'm more often subject to "I shouldn't be eating this" rituals.)

[keryx.livejournal.com]

not exactly on topic, buuut...
The "I shouldn't be eating this" ritual is very interesting (sociologically) - the more diet concepts pervade the culture, the more these conversations seem to have shifted from "I shouldn't eat this" "No, I shouldn't eat this" to detailed discussions about exactly what one should eat and when.

It started out annoying me, but I've come to be fascinated by it. The whole pattern seems to say that people have a LOT of anxiety about their feeding habits.

[firecat]

Thank you - maybe next time I'll be able to be fascinated by it rather than irritated and feeling like someone's spoiling my enjoyment of the food.

[(Anonymous)]

I alternate. Sometimes it really is just like people are out to wreck my meal, but when everyone gangs up on themselves in this whole diet discussion - and it's such a mess, really, everyone trying to figure out the One True Path to Thinness.

I also just feel... well, sympathetic, a bit, but it's also like why do they think this way? why don't I? And really, I don't understand what everyone's really reaching for in the diet craze, but I can't imagine that it's just thin. I want thin to stand for something, I want to understand what it means.

[peregrin8.livejournal.com]

The specific "I am so fat" rituals in that chapter are (as I dimly recall) non-U.S. But the whole book is fascinating; I highly recommend it!

[keryx.livejournal.com]

That social interaction bothers me in and of itself, honestly. I think it's a problem in women's/girl's interactions with each other that we could at least try to stop in our individual interactions with others. It's not just uncomfortable for anyone who isn't the "right size" to participate, it doesn't feel right to me for anyone to encourage that kind of "oh, I'm so bad" "no you're not" validation...

[firecat]

I agree, and I won't engage in those kinds of discussions. But I find a lot of women REALLY don't know how to interact with me because of my nonstandard responses when such discussions start.

One time I was stretching in the gym, and someone came up to me and said "You're so flexible! I'm not flexible at all," implying I must have been doing some exercise activitity regularly that she wasn't doing.

I said "I'm not doing anything special, it's genetic." She didn't know what to make of that.

[titilayo.livejournal.com]

The "don't say you're fat if you're not" thing, that intrigues me. Is it actually about body dysmorphia? Or is it that people use "fat" to mean they feel "bad"?

Another of my LJ-friends posted about fatness/being fat lately, and someone in the comments said that when they say "I am fat" or "I feel fat" it's really shorthand for saying "I'm unhappy or uncomfortable with my weight." And that's true for me too. I'm not fat, but I have been put on some weight lately (which people comment on approvingly, although I don't know why they feel the need to comment at all) and I've noticed it mostly because some of my clothes have become a little more snug. I don't mind the size I am, but sometimes when I find it harder than usual to button my jeans, I'll moan to my boyfriend, "Oh, I'm getting so fat." Which is silly because I'm not. And I know that. I'm just a bit miserable because I don't like the way my clothes fit anymore, and I've not completely accepted/adjusted to being a different slightly larger size.

In short, yeah, "fat" in this sense means does/can sort of mean "bad" or "not entirely at ease with my body" or "uncomfortable with the way I fit into my clothes". It's not necessarily body dysmorphia, I don't think.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

omgwtfbbq a post from april i am so happy!!!!!!!!!

later when i have time i will have to read indepth.

you are my guiding light! i miss you!

now i will stop sounding like a stuttering teenage fangirl and go back to my normal existence.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

i'm so flattered. narf!

my life is gradually getting less torturous, which means i think of things to write more. or, you know, at all.

[crafting-change.livejournal.com]

It's good etiquette in general to create an environment where people know it's okay to ask for what they need, where you don't assume everyone will just blend in.
this should be embroidered on pillows, tattooed on arms, and made into billboard signs.

I grew up in an insanely rude/loud/crazy house, and it's taken the 6 years I've been with my hubby to learn that it is so much better to be quiet, not assume, and try to make others comfortable (while still respecting your own needs).

[keryx.livejournal.com]

It's impressive that you figured it out in 6 years, really. Everyone seems to have a hard time with even understanding that it's important, let alone actually doing it. I know I fail to actually do it all the time.

[crafting-change.livejournal.com]

I'm far from perfect, I still will loudly exclaime such polite phrases as 'ewwwwwwwww who would eat that' with little regaurd for who might be offended'

it's an uphill battle, this politeness thing.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Is it actually about body dysmorphia?

Yes. You really really really don't know. I mean if you've had trouble with body dysmorphia.

I'd go through all this wild logic: I'm 110 pounds, but because I'm short and have puffy fat and because my legs are extra short it looks like 180-- also I'm dehydrted so 185. That means I'm obease.

I mean, I'd feel "too fat to go in public" even though I've never met anyone who I'd tell to stay out of public because they are too fat.

It makes no sense.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not denying that there has to be some element of body dysmorphia going on with this. And yeah, I don't understand it. I don't understand it in myself or in other people.

But. Is it that widespread? Is everyone completely confused about what they actually look like? Or are there other things going on?

[varsil.livejournal.com]

I've got a couple of problems with the article. I get a very large "Handle With Care" sort of feeling from it. It could have been phrased much better in terms of saying, "Here are some issues you might not have considered, and you should consider". Instead it comes off and says, "Fat people are so very breakable, and need to be given primary consideration in every single thing you do". It really makes it sound like fat folks are going to be a gigantic hassle to be around. And it goes beyond saying, "Hey, etiquette says you should consider these issues in making meal choices, seating arrangements, etc" to stating it all like it's some sort of god-given set of rules. The fat person gets shotgun, chooses the eating establishments, chooses the walking pace, and if you have sex with them, you shouldn't suggest sex positions.

But hell, I might be a bit biased here. I'm a really skinny fellow. However, I have two things going here: One, I have a really bad back, which is often going out. Bar stools can be uncomfortable, as can slow walking, as can certain sex positions. Two, I have ADHD, which makes slow walking really difficult for me even when my back isn't fucked up. So, I'm not completely ignorant of the fact that there can be a need to consider people's Issues when planning things out. I just don't think that the way the thing is phrased, as a list of strict rules/demands, is a very good idea.

Breaking it down to the absolutely most strict level, I can't imagine hanging around someone who insisted on all of these rules. Sometimes your comfort is going to have to take the wayside--say, if I need Person X riding shotgun because they know where we're going, comfort takes a backseat to that necessity. If you insist on that comfort, you get the choice to walk instead. And if a potential sex partner ever said to me, "I need for you to never suggest sex positions", as of that moment they'd cease to be a potential sex partner.

When someone manages to write something that starts giving me the impression that fat people are too much work to have as friends or sex partners, that's some awful writing. I value my fat friends (and my skinny friends, and everyone in between) because they respect me as much as I do them, which is all that's really needed.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

Are you responding to the style of the writing or to its actual content?

Yes, of course, the article is angry and defensive. It came from a webzine run by a bunch of punk rock fat grrrls a coupla years ago. It's supposed to be angry. Not that I would expect you to know that - it's just background info that I didn't share originally; however, I defend any even semi-oppressed group's right to be pissed off.

That said, yes, the style doesn't exactly lend itself to selling allies on the whole etiquette thing.

[varsil.livejournal.com]

In some ways style and content are inseperable whenever you're trying to make a persuasive argument. The whole thing just rubs me the wrong way, I must say. And after going to sleep last night, part of what it is occurred to me:

The whole thing says, "As a fat person, I am horribly ashamed of my appearance and want to live in denial."

It doesn't say, "Engage in an open dialogue with your friends to consider these issues". It says, "Plan your life around making sure that your fat friend never has an awkward moment, that fatness is never mentioned in their presence, and that nothing you say can be taken as a comment on their fatness".

For instance, the sitting with one's back to the wall thing is less a statement about anything particular to being fat, as opposed to things particular to poor self-esteem. The chair with one's back to the wall is the "power seat", and tends to be the most psychologically secure place to sit, but actually needing to be there is a sign something is wrong.

And the sexual positions thing... let your fat lover choose the positions. Why? So that you never have the experience of finding out that they can't do a particular thing? Wouldn't it be better to just try, and have understanding of your partner's limitations when they come up? Like, say, in any other relationship? But no, it has to be made sure that the fatness must never be mentioned. That's not respectful, that's treating someone with kid gloves.

I dunno, they say "Never assume that because a person is fat, they are unhealthy, undesirable, or unhappy", but it sounds like they're assuming that fat people are indeed unhappy inherently with the fact, and unable to deal with open dialogue. That's a bad message.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

But no, it has to be made sure that the fatness must never be mentioned. That's not respectful
Yes! Good point. I'd argue that by treating someone with that sort of kid gloves, you're actually saying they should be ashamed of being fat.

Which is the aspect of the whole fat etiquette thing that I find - well, anti-fat-people. There's a usefulness to declaiming all the ways fat people are oppressed, but if you get all declamatory, you also risk casting the same stereotypical net over all fat folk that you were pissed off about in the first place.

huh???

[cutegaychick.livejournal.com]

I'm not so sure how fat etiquette differs from regular etiquette. More specifically:

What does your weight have to do with having your back to the crowd in a restaurant? Isn't that more about mild paranoia? Do I have to notice which of my friends is paranoid and which isn't and keep that in mind before we chose a table?

I'm down with the "don't make fat jokes, period" but doesn't that also apply to race, sexual orientation, handicap, etc? Social Interaction 101: Don't make disparaging jokes about other people. They're not funny.

As for walking paces...it's only good manners to keep up with the whereabouts and comfort of your companions. If you've noticed someone's fallen behind, dude, slow down! If the person next to you is limping, wheezing or jogging to keep up, dude, slow down! What difference does it make whether it's because they're fat or because they've only got one leg or because they just hate walking?

Don't say you're fat if you're not fat:
I have really conflicting feelings about this. First off, I get to decide if I'm fat. You don't -- I don't care what size you are.
On the other hand, I've got female lovers who talk about how fat they are and I am always utterly horrified when they do it because really, if I've got 50 pounds on you easy and you think you're way too fat, I am never ever ever taking my clothes off in your presence. Ever. Really. I mean it. *shudder*
However, my real bottom line on this is that it's no different from anything else stupid that women say. And we all do it.
Perhaps rather than the "don't say you're fat if you're not" rule, we should be trying to instill the "stop dissing yourself" rule. "I'm getting so fat." "My hair looks so awful today." "My skin is so bad." "Oh my God, I can't believe you let me out of the house looking like such a disaster!"
(For some reason, this is usually coupled with a bizarre compliment. "You've got such pretty hair. I wish my hair were pretty like yours instead of being so incredibly ugly ...")
My general feeling (and I catch myself doing it too) is that all self-deprecating statements of that type should be politely ignored.

Re: huh???

[keryx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you hit right on the heart of the thing that pissed me off about the fat etiquette thing - attaching all these ideas about how someone might feel to ONE ASPECT of their appearance. Granted, it's an appearance aspect that frequently gets them at least major shit if not full-out oppression. In that respect, it might be like there's a need to educate fat allies the way you educate white people who don't want to be giant racists.

Re: huh???

[varsil.livejournal.com]

I think the "Oh, I'm so fat", or "My skin is so bad" thing is fishing for compliments. The response they're hoping for is "Oh, no you're not, you look good" (or something along those lines). Hence why it's usually coupled with a compliment--they're hoping for one in return.

Re: huh???

[cutegaychick.livejournal.com]

The self-deprecation/compliment is definitely the correct response to the self-deprecation/compliment (i.e. Person A: "Oh I hate to go out with you today. You look so pretty and I'm having such a bad hair day." Person B: "You? Don't be silly! You look fabulous! I'm the one who shouldn't go out -- my face is breaking out and I look hideous.")

However, I think it's not fishing as much as it's some kind of uncontrollable estrogen-induced urge. I don't think we do it on purpose or because we're trying to get an empty compliment back. I think we just do it because we do it. It's an unfortunate form of social interaction we pick up from being around women and never quite manage to shake.

Re: huh???

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think we just do it because we do it. I mean, YES, that's the individual's experience of it. But I think it's the compelling social forces of puritanism (we're supposed to be humble, we're supposed to be "good", not eat the wrong things) and an emphasis on appearance as value - so women are supposed to be "beautiful" but they're not supposed to know it, basically. So yes, our behavior is based on generation after generation of watching women say "oh, I'm unattractive, how can you love me" and "no, I'M ugly, you're beautiful, how can YOU love ME" - but we can examine it and turn into something we don't do and derail those forces a little.