those who were seen dancing

But who really wants to talk about *all* women's sexuality when it's so much more fun to pick on the young women who vaguely meet our ideas about attractiveness?

Snark aside, yet another reason why I don't think this book deserves all the hype it's gotten on my f-list this week. Though it's clearly talking about a topic that people want to hear more about.

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I... I've got nothing.
sorry.

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attrice.livejournal.com

I read the book a few weeks ago. It was ok. Nothing new unless you're totally new to feminism. I liked her take on the feminist 'sex wars' of the eighties. I mostly agreed with what she said, but none of it was earth shattering.

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petite-tadpole.livejournal.com

Oh! So our little discussion about white male privalege may have inspired the topic for the page I have to write for my World Geography class. I was sitting in class going... OH! YES!

I know this makes little sense, but if I write the paper, I'll let you read it and it will make sense :)

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white male privilege?
what do i get?
apparently im getting hosed, and need to accentuate my white maleness better...

i do know im not allowed to complain about anything... i just dont know why yet.

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This joke gets less and less funny.

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well im glad im not joking this time.

i seriously hate the entire idea of white male privilege.

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libskrat

Being white and male, of course you do.

That doesn't make it poof out of existence.

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then please... explain what my privilege is?
other than being the focus of just about everyone's anger, i havent received one damn thing.

im a white, straight male of german descent... what do i get that other people dont?

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libskrat

Start here to find out.

I don't think he mentions "derailing conversations because you feel put-upon," but he should.

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Clearly I haven't found the one voices from heaven way to explain this to you, but the thing with privilege is that it's not about you as an individual; it's not even good for white men as a group. You weren't the focus of anyone's anger until you started being so damned dense about this (although I guess the ability to ignore your privilege is a sure hallmark of it, as people of other colors have had to remind me in the past).

I suspect if you looked harder, you could find a couple of things you don't have to think about that less privileged people are reminded of every day. Start with the list from Ampersand (what

cavlec posted), if you're actually interested in understanding and not just waving your hands and saying you refuse to understand.

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alright, ill agree that male privilege exists, but at the same time i believe there is an existence, is not equal to the privilege, of disadvantage that comes with the territory.

if i am chosen over a woman for a position, some people will assume it is because of my sex, rather than my abilities.

in high school, i was unable to find scholarships that were specialized to my gender or race, as exist for women and minorities, because such grants would be considered racist or sexist.

i was told by people that i should play sports rather than attempt less active, more cognitive extracurricular activities, because that is what guys do.

My masculinity is questioned because i did not play football, because obviously i was built for it.

My masculinity is questioned because i have NOT had sex with a multitude of partners.

My masculinity is questioned because i would rather stay at home with kids than go out into the work world.

If i say something negative to another person, Ican be considered racist or sexist, even if i am saying the exact same words as someone of the same sex or race might have.

I was told at my security job that one assignment was for a female employee because men are too aggressive (actually that one was shit from either side)

i have heard the phrase "typical man" used to describe a statement i made or action i took, even when such action was completely out of character for me.

and unlike the final point of ampersand, i am not able to live blissfully unaware of white male privilege (despite how i may have come across) but am kept painfully aware of anything that may be considered privilege, regardless of whether or not that is what is truly at work.

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grrr. forgot to login. typical male. :)

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firecat

Basically I agree with what

keryx said - sexism and racism hurt everyone, not just women and minorities. And yes there are some disadvantages that are specifically a result of being male. Most of the disadvantages you list below, though, affect everyone.

if i am chosen over a woman for a position, some people will assume it is because of my sex, rather than my abilities.

This happens to women and minorities too. It probably happens less often to men than women and minorities, but it sucks that it happens at all.

in high school, i was unable to find scholarships that were specialized to my gender or race, as exist for women and minorities, because such grants would be considered racist or sexist.

I agree that having fewer scholarships available to you is a disadvantage. Did your inability to take advantage of those scholarships mean you were unable to find scholarships and unable to afford to go to the school of your choice? I'm curious.

i was told by people that i should play sports rather than attempt less active, more cognitive extracurricular activities, because that is what guys do.

That sucks. It sucks just as much as when women are told we should spend our time learning to put on makeup and walk in high heels, because that is what women are supposed to do.

My masculinity is questioned because i have NOT had sex with a multitude of partners.

Women's morality is questioned if we do.

My masculinity is questioned because i would rather stay at home with kids than go out into the work world.

That sucks. It also sucks that you probably will experience more pressure to be the working partner, if you have children with a woman, because she will very likely not be able to find jobs that pay as much as the jobs you can get.

If i say something negative to another person, Ican be considered racist or sexist, even if i am saying the exact same words as someone of the same sex or race might have.

This sort of thing happens to women and minorities too. If women say the exact same words as a man might, we are often judged as bitches and what have you, because women are supposed to act more submissive. If a non-white person says stuff, the same thing can happen.

I was told at my security job that one assignment was for a female employee because men are too aggressive (actually that one was shit from either side)

Yep, it is shit from either side.

i have heard the phrase "typical man" used to describe a statement i made or action i took, even when such action was completely out of character for me.

The phrase "typical man" should be eradicated from the English language, IMO. As should the phrase "typical woman".

and unlike the final point of ampersand, i am not able to live blissfully unaware of white male privilege (despite how i may have come across) but am kept painfully aware of anything that may be considered privilege, regardless of whether or not that is what is truly at work.

I don't know your level of awareness, but are you aware that a lot of stuff doesn't happen to you because you're a white male? Your job competence is usually not questioned because of your sex. You probably aren't evaluated strictly on your appearance as often, or considered primarily a sex object as often, because of your sex. Because you're white, you probably aren't as often watched with suspicion when you enter a store or drive in a suburban neighborhood.

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actually on most of my points i took the opposing view of most of ampersands points, which is why the reverse is true for women and minorities.

I don't know your level of awareness, but are you aware that a lot of stuff doesn't happen to you because you're a white male? Your job competence is usually not questioned because of your sex. You probably aren't evaluated strictly on your appearance as often, or considered primarily a sex object as often, because of your sex. Because you're white, you probably aren't as often watched with suspicion when you enter a store or drive in a suburban neighborhood

while our ever patient moderator keryx is commonly pointing out to me that this is not focused on individuals but as a group (see? sometimes i listen), my personal experience seems to go against the grain.
My physical appearance seems to greatly affect the way strangers percieve me, not as a sexual object but rather as a physical threat. Being 6-4, 330 lbs with a shaved head and a beard, i often find myself judged on sight. So in fact im always watched with suspicion... and i think my friends' neighbors would probably feel some concern with my walking through their neighborhood alone, regardless of my pale skin. I guess that this experience, more so than my being a white male, affect my feelings on this... whenever people say that they are being treated unfairly because they are a minority and explain how, i often find myself thinking "well, me too."

in fact, im gonna jump sides of the coin... i feel like i am being adversely affected by the physically fit, clean shaven privilege given in this society.

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I don't know if you're trying to be funny or not, but yes, there's a certain amount of privilege attached to meeting an appearance-based definition of "normal". Which almost always means not fat. Thus the whole fat liberation movement (cause fat folk are in fact actively discriminated against, even if I don't experience this in my life every day).

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firecat

actually on most of my points i took the opposing view of most of ampersands points, which is why the reverse is true for women and minorities.

I'm not in full agreement with ampersand's points, especially with the "never" or "hardly ever" in many of them - I would have thought them better if they'd been phrased as "less often", etc.

I thought the original article that ampersand was following (about white privilege) was much better.

My physical appearance seems to greatly affect the way strangers percieve me, not as a sexual object but rather as a physical threat. Being 6-4, 330 lbs with a shaved head and a beard, i often find myself judged on sight. So in fact im always watched with suspicion...

I've heard other large men talk about how people perceive them as threatening. There are advantages to being large too (e.g., tall men are more likely to be promoted to high responsibility positions and given leadership roles, so there is an economic advantage to the group as a whole; also I suspect but am not sure that large men are less likely to be physically attacked). But I'm not sure whether the kind of suspicion you encounter is the same as the kind of suspicion non-white people encounter - do you regularly get stopped for questioning by police, for example?

whenever people say that they are being treated unfairly because they are a minority and explain how, i often find myself thinking "well, me too."

in fact, im gonna jump sides of the coin... i feel like i am being adversely affected by the physically fit, clean shaven privilege given in this society.

As someone who outweighs you at a foot shorter than you, I can relate to that, and I consider very large people to be a discriminated-against minority.

So yes, I have no trouble believing you are discriminated against because of your size.

I am also white and middle-class, and being a member of those groups gives me privilege - there are lots of things I just don't have to think about, lots of hoops I don't have to jump through.

I believe you also have such privilege as a result of being a member of the white group and the male group.

It's not either/or.

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I so totally and completely heart you. :)

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This is, I swear, the last time I'm going to bother saying this to you: PATRIARCHY HURTS MEN, TOO. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that men as a class aren't privileged.

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peregrin8.livejournal.com

I hate the idea of white privilege, but the fact remains that I HAVE white privilege, and it can't be cast off simply by denying or hating it. There are many situations where I don't even realize that my white privilege is in effect -- for instance, at the corner shop I don't notice the clerk not following me around, and on the highway I don't notice the police not pulling me over... there must be many instances that I don't even know enough to list.

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maybe i dont notice it so much because i tend to find myself on the receiving end of treatments supposedly removed by my privilege.

always getting hassled by "the man"

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peregrin8.livejournal.com

maybe those incidents would be even worse and/or more frequent if you weren't a white male.

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i guess they could be worse, but i think the frequency is pretty high up.

when it comes up, i dont think my being white has helped me yet... or maybe it has.

then again i reap the "benefits" of being huge and putting people in defensive mode around me.

im not saying that their reactions are always unfounded though... sometimes i deserve what i get.

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It sounds intriguing. I'll wait with baited breath. Or something.

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fierceawakening.livejournal.com

That Posts article... nngh. It really doesn't... say anything at all. Other than like... OMGWTF STRIPPERS ON OPRAH!!!11!!!one!

(PS. Am I the only one who doesn't think Oprah is very feminist?)

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Oprah is supposed to be very feminist? HUH?

So no, I guess you're not the only one. I see her as a sort of feminist-lite - she wants to empower women, but only within certain limits. It's not evil or anything, but she's not quite an icon for feminism.

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fierceawakening.livejournal.com

Oh, I meant that sarcastically. It's surprising how I've seen a handful of people defend this woman's thesis, and yet looking at that article, it's... Oprah and stuff. I don't know. Makes me uneasy.

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Aha. I was wondering what the hell you were thinking, there. My comments about Oprah apply to everything I've seen directly from this author so far: feminist-lite.

But there's clearly a need for someone to write more analytically on the subject, since this book stirred so many opinions.

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positive or negative, i at least keep the conversation lively... besides, you were saying how you wish you got more stupid posts to denote your lj stardom.

you'll always be a star to me.

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fierceawakening.livejournal.com

Did you notice this?

You're famous!

oh, and: http://www.livejournal.com/community/feminist/#item2151449

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Hee! I'm famous(ish).

I'll have to sit down with your post in

feminist later; it looks like good reading.

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Whoa... just read through the list, and here's a list of my own:

The White Male Priviledge Primer:

1. If I am applying into a job that is dominated by white males, the law will require that a certain percentage of the hiring be from other groups on the assumption that this is due to racism/sexism, even if the gender/ethnicity ratio of qualified applicants exactly matches the gender/ethnicity ratio of those actually hired.

2. No matter how qualified you are in your field, the fact that you are a white male will still be considered a problem. A physics think tank that somehow managed to staff itself with a hundred identical Stephen Hawkings would be seen as racist and sexist.

3. If I am never promoted, it won't be because of which sex I am. It may, however, be because of which sex I am not.

4. If I fail in my career, it won't be seen against my entire sex's capabilities. According to popular media, men aren't capable of feeding, clothing, or doing laundry on their own, much less managing a career.

5. The odds of my reporting sexual harassment, or of it being taken seriously in the event I do are about equal to the odds that I have of prevailing against a false accusation of harassment if one is made against me (or approximately zero).

6. If I do the same task as a woman and our performance is equal, her odds of promotion are greater than mine, in the name of equality.

7. Issues of dark figure make it impossible to tell how likely it is that I will be raped outside of a prison setting. Within men's prisons rape has been described as "virtually universal". In the event of either happening to me, I shall find no support, and quite likely be actively mocked.

8. I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces, even though I am far more likely to be a victim of violence than a woman is, especially in said average public space.

9. If I choose not to have children or am unable to have children, my masculinity will be called into question.

10. If I have children and the woman and I separate for whatever reason I am virtually assured of having less than equal time with my child, and my masculinity will be called into question.

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11. If I have children and provide sole care for them, my masculinity will be called into question.

12. If I have children and stay at home to raise them, my masculinity will be called into question.

13. People will claim that the fortunes of a microscopic minority of people who share my race and gender indicate that there I am personally benefiting from my race/gender and thus automatically in a better social position than they, no matter what our actual current situations, even if those current situations make the claim ridiculous as it applies to me personally.

14. People will assume that my elected representatives share my views simply because they happen to share my gender, as if all men were the same.

15. I can be somewhat sure that if I ask to see "the person in charge" that I am an asshole, regardless of what the gender of that person is.

16. As a child, I will be pressured to deny my feelings, likely leaving me unable to deal with them in later life, and poorly equipped to navigate socially.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring antisocial, active, highly-stereotyped "heroes" of my own sex. I never had to look for it, media idolizing a particular vision of the antisocial male as desirable was the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more attention than girls who raised their hands just as often, especially if I was having trouble sitting still or was otherwise exhibiting behaviours more often shown by children of my sex. Not that the detentions did any good, mind.

19. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not imagine that this is the result of a conspiracy by the opposite gender. I have no socially suggested delusions on which to blame my failings, and thus I am encouraged to deal with my actual problems.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception. I am expected to believe that this is a good thing when these people are criminals, or inept caricatures designed to make a woman look good in order that some corporation can market dish soap to women.

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21. If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex by the occasional jackass. I'll still be out the money, though.

22. Whether I'm careless with my driving or not, I will pay a higher insurance premium based on my sex due to the assumption that I am being careless.

23. My fears about public speaking are entirely unrelated to my projecting thoughts about gender discrimination onto my viewers. Instead I project thoughts that they dislike the content of my presentation onto my viewers.

24. If I have sex with a lot of people, it won't make me an object of contempt or derision. However, if I don't have sex with a lot of people, that will make me an object of contempt or derision, even though promiscuity inherently carries risks I may not want to adopt, or may violate deeply held moral codes.

25. People will make decisions about you and your values by inferring from your clothing choices. Some people may be consciously ignorant of these decisions, even as they still affect their behaviour.

26. My wardrobe and grooming are relatively cheap and consume little time. Instead, it will be suggested by society at large that I need to devote hours of the day to putting on muscle, and will be inundated with advertisements for steroids, quasi-steroid "supplements", and miracle penis enlargement methods.

27. I am more likely to research the price of a car thoroughly before buying one, and yet my savings will be attributed to my penis.

28. If I'm not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively easy for other people to ignore, regardless of the hardships it might actually cause me in practice.

29. I can be loud with no fear of being a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. In fact, I'm expected to be an ass. If, on the other hand, I happen to be shy and retiring, these are seen as character flaws.

30. I can ask for legal protection from violence that mostly happens to men without being seen as a selfish special interest. If I am a victim of violence that happens mostly to women I am likely to be ignored at best, and possibly seen as the real criminal. People will also question my masculinity, and what I did to instigate the event.

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31. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex, and thus free from being distracted from real causes by meaningless language quibbles.

32. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. People will assume I'm incapable of doing simple tasks like cooking dinner and doing the laundry 24/7.

33. Hell, I'll yield this one. Name yourself whatever the hell you want, but don't let anyone tell you what that should be.

34. The decision to hire me will never be based on the assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon, as paternity leave and/or the concept of men actually having any involvement in their children's lives are foregone conclusions to my employer.

35. Some people I don't share any views with tell me that an imaginary person is also a man. Good for him. For some reason they get angry when I tell them about other imaginary men, like the Lucky Charms leprechaun.

36. Those same people have some other crazy sexist beliefs that I don't ascribe to. They were funnier when they were just talking about imaginary people.

37. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, it will be assumed that I work longer hours than her.

38. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are work commitments will deny me the opportunity to take equal time with my children in both good aspects and bad.

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to sacrifice time raising the children to make money, chances are we'll both assume that the sacrifice should be mine.

40. Pornography and other sexually explicit imagery intended to appeal to me is to be considered wrong and bad, and people will suggest that it should be banned, and that my viewing of it is likely to make me a violent criminal. Similar materials intended to appeal to women are considered empowering and good.

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41. I am expected to spend my life with overdeveloped muscles, whether or not I need them for my chosen lifestyle, and whether or not this requires steroid use to attain.

42. If I am heterosexual, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover, despite large amounts of evidence to the contrary. Those who send bomb threats to the researchers who have made these findings are holy warriors who will be rewarded in Heaven. Praise Brownmiller! In the incredibly unlikely event that domestic violence does occur against you, you may or may not have legal resource, and you will be unlikely to be able to find a shelter that will accomodate you. Further, you may likely be considered to have been the instigator or aggressor even if you are completely innocent, and may face criminal sanction as a result.

43. Weird strangers cause me slightly different inconveniences than they cause women.

44. On average, I talk less than others, which means that when I want to talk, I have to interrupt more.

45. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

Sorry for the comment-bombing, but I thought that the linked-to material above needed a proper counter-take.

Frankly, I think that the idea of "male privilege" is the dumbest shit to come from the feminist movement, and needs to be outright abolished from the discussion as used by reasonable people. "Privilege" isn't a meaningful term, it's a generic umbrella term that essentially just becomes synonymous with "men". It's also useless in terms of actually doing anything about any problems. You can't pass a law against "male privilege", but you might be able to advance something against harassment in the workplace. The talk of privilege is unnecessarily polarizing and vague. It assumes that any difference in situation between men and women is the result of some overarching sexist conspiracy rather than choices, historical factors, and specific problems to be dealt with. It's also impossible to argue against, with the magic words being, "Well, you can't see it".

It also simplifies a complex problem of gender inequities and gender expectations down to just two words that places the onus entirely on men, as if that was where all the problems come from and not from society as a whole. And frankly, I'm sorry, but this is a fight that needs both genders working together to common purpose, not divided by petty bickering. So let's just settle this up right now: Both women and men get both benefits and drawbacks from the gender inequities present, and both benefits and drawbacks should be eliminated as best we can to bring about parity. The current situation is no one's fault so much as it is everyone's fault, and everyone's responsibility to do something about.

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