(no subject)

[keryx]

On one of the lists I belong to, there's been some really interesting discussion about people's stances on body modification. I find most surgical body modification problematic. I wouldn't insist that others not get surgery to change the way their appearance, but it feels to me that plastic (even reconstructive) surgery, weightloss surgery and sex-reassignment are all ways in which we force the body to conform to cultural norms (duality of gender, fat is evil, there's only one kind of beautiful).

That doesn't mean I condemn individuals for making these choices. I just think the choices can (like all individual choices) add up to reinforcing those norms. But if the decision is to do that, or to live in a world that sends messages about your failure to fit 24/7... I can't fault someone for not being a Warrior of the New Culture or whatever, you know? It's hard just to be sorta fat, just to be a woman, just to be queer - it has to be much harder for your body to be seen by the culture (of which you are part) as a symbol of your Fundamental Wrongness.

I usually just shut up about this, because we're talking about choices that don't feel remotely optional to the people who make them. That's not them failing - it's a culture failing them; it's all of us believing that sex=gender or fat=agony. This is obvious to most of us when we talk about SRS or reconstructive surgery after cancer or something, but we're much more likely to criticise individuals for wanting "younger looking skin" or something else we consider shallow. The culture's not where it needs to go yet, and individuals are in different places along the way. So I can only criticise the culture, not the people wading through it.

I'm feeling optimistic today. This weekend I was watching television and realized that I found Tom Cruise oddly hot. I have a long history of being completely turned off by the buffly athletic hero body type. I like curvy and soft and wiry and gaunt, you know? [Not all together, silly!] But I've come to find buffness attractive as my partner has become more and more buff.

And I'm thinking the culture changes like that, too. The more each of us come to know a wider range of bodies, the more acceptable those bodies will be. It's started already, all over. That's why there's so much furor over "real beauty" and the Obesity Crisis, Egads! - because that change will slowly and fundamentally alter the nature of the way things and ideas get sold.

Yeah. I'm feeling optimistic.

Comments

[keryx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. No body modification form is inherently bad, and SRS will probably always be the right choice for some people (and it's not like it's touted as the Next Big Thing or anything now). These are just all "choices" that aren't fully optional today.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm a judgemental ass, but I think breat augmentation surgery is inherently bad. Yep, definately a judgemental ass.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

I think it only seems inherently bad because it's nigh on impossible for us (as people in the culture) to divorce it from the cultural context of sexually objectifying women.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

I think you're right.

I have a really hard time thinking of a case in which it doesn't seem creepy to me (other than perhaps after a mastectomy due to cancer, or something, as someone mentions below) -- but I think all of that has to do with what doing that means in our culture.

[tartedelune.livejournal.com]

Out of curiousity, what are your feelings about cases of breast augmentation after partial/full masectomies because of breast cancer?

I had a friend who got a boob job after having breast cancer, and somehow I can't see it as on par with my friends who have had surgery because they simply wanted bigger breasts.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'd never want anyone inserting anything in me that wasn't strictly necessary to keep me going, but that's not what we're talking about here.

I really don't know what to say in the case of replacing a missing breast. If people feel the need to do that, who am I to stop them?

But to me that's different from augmentation, it's replacement.

[tartedelune.livejournal.com]

But when you or I see fake boobs we don't always know if they are "replacements" or "upgrades." Meaning that if motivation is the only thing that distinguishes an acceptable decision from an unacceptable decision then how can we pass judgment without knowing the whole story? (this is not a rhetorical question)

I was mainly wondering because you said that you think it is inherantly bad. I don't understand how something can be inherently bad, and also acceptable under certain circumstances. I personally have MANY problems with cosmetic surgery, but I also have a hard time drawing moral absolutes about what people do to their own bodies. It's a topic I am very torn about because there is so much overlap between the individual's motivation and the cultural implications.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

But... I don't usually "see" boobs. I mean, not that are identifiable as fake or real without explanation.

So what I'm saying is that if someone says to me, "Hey I went up to a C cup, now I have big boobs, yay!" I say "Uh... I gotta go." If someone says, "After the mastectomy, they replaced what I had, and that pleases me." I say "Awesome! I am glad you feel comfortable after enduring a disease!"

What I'm saying is that I have never had knowledge of fake boobs without knowledge of the whole story.

I'm torn, perhaps, about cosmetic surgery after disease; but definitely not torn about elective cosmetic surgery to augment breasts.

That said, I work from a general principle of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". If someone tells me about their plan to have breast augmentation surgery, I generally will say nothing unless they ask.

[tartedelune.livejournal.com]

I getcha then. I see obviously fake breasts a fair amount (and make many assumptions about why a person has them), so my question was coming from that perspective. I see how it wouldn't apply if you get the back story and the realization of the fake breasts simultaneously.

Another hypothetical question (hope you don't mind!), how would you feel about a woman who had very divergently sized breasts and augemented to make them the same size?

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

I am naive, and default to the assumption that all breasts are real until I am told otherwise. ;)

As to the question, depending on how comofortable I was with the person, I'd probably ask them why they weren't getting them reduced to make them the same size. And then hopefully have a deep and meaningful discussion about women's bodies as symbols and battlegrounds. Whee!

if you're still interested by this conversation...

[tartedelune.livejournal.com]

New question! Why would a breast reduction be better than a breast augementation in this situation, since the final outcome of matching breasts is the same? I mean, breast symmetry is part of the beauty standards as much as having large breasts, so if you are already getting your body modified to fit these ideals how does it make a difference which boob sets the standard?

I guess my basic question is, how does one decide when it is acceptable to do something that supports these beauty ideals and when it is over the line? Do you have a general guideline you work with when thinking about these issues?

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean it like, breast reduction would be superior, just why choose augmentation instead of reduction. To me it makes a difference because big boobs are usually seen as superior. At least, so thinks every flat chested teenaged I've ever met... to me it seems the societal pressure is to have more boob. So I'd basically be fishing for that answer, and hope it started a discussion.

Honestly, I can't tell anyone what to do. My judgements usually are sort of made in the vacuum of my brain. I would never say "you're not a feminist if you get X done!" but I would certainly want to talk about how someone came to the decision, and I might disagree with them.

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[keryx.livejournal.com]

See the question I posed to tartedelune re the augmentation/reduction thing; it was for both of you. ;)

I have a more general question for you, though - why are you silent about others' so-called choices? I hear you say, not infrequently, that you don't usually speak up about feministy stuff. I'm not saying that's always true (given how outspoken' you tend to be on LJ, for instance), but I'm curious why you're quiet [or believe you are].

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

I guess I walk a line between when I think my input is wanted and when it's not. I tend to take LJ as a bit of an invitation to criticism and commentary, however, I don't take that too far because I know it's not, really, strictly that. I'm not one of these "you put your stuff out on the internet so you had better expect to get harassed" people.

In face to face interpersonal relationships, though, I am often not willing to harsh on someone's groove when there is no indication that my input is wanted. When we are talking about personal choice, I often fear confrontation, and worry that the way I put things will sound like a personal judgement or insult rather than discussing the implications of someone's actions. Also, I want people to like me. Really badly. In fact, I am having a ridiculous panic that no one will come to my New Year's party because they have finally decided I am a) not a responsible enough activist or b) that raging bitch who is always criticising eevryone's actions.

Often enough, I feel like people already know what I'm going to say before I say it. Conversations will happen like this:

Friend: "Oh, I know how Kim feels about this, but ohmigod did you see that movie?"
Kim: "..."

In that case I figure, they don't want me to tell them how vile I think whatever cultural thinger is they are about to talk about is.

I almost always speak up about feministy stuff if I specifically think that someone hasn't thought about the implications of what they are saying/doing. But most people I know kind of have. I have a friend who has said on numerous occasions she wants to get a boob job. This is a person who created a community mocking feminism. I don't need to explain to them my thoughts on the issue; they've already thought about it and rejected the criticisms. There's nothing to say there.

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[tartedelune.livejournal.com]

ahh, I misunderstood your comment. Stupid online communication with its lack of tone and facial expression.

I agree that there is a lot of pressure to have large breasts. My question was mainly coming from the perspective that there is also a lot of pressure to have matching breasts, and that if one was getting them "fixed" it wouldn't (in my mind) make much of a moral difference if they were downsized or enlarged. My thinking was kind of along the line of what you were talking about re: post-cancer breast augementation; if you already have one large breast it seems different to me than if you were enlarging both.

Honestly, I have no idea if this comment makes sense anymore. I am much better at these kinds of conversations in person.

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

Me too, on the in person thing. Anytime you like!

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[tartedelune.livejournal.com]

that would be awesome! since you work in Annapolis, maybe we could meet for tea or sometime...

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[keryx.livejournal.com]

Grr. I'm jealous - I don't live close enough to just casually meet up with most of you (though definitely close enough for weekend things... hint, hint).

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[keryx.livejournal.com]

I have another question for both of you: how do you feel about breast reduction? There's an implication in this discussion that reduction isn't bad because it doesn't adhere to the "big breasts" ideal, but there's the symmetry thing, and there's the being defined by sexual characteristics thing. So, how is having your breasts smallified any less anti-feminist than having them enlarged?

Does your answer change if the woman believes (as many WLS patients do) that the breast reduction is reducing a strain of some sort that couldn't be addressed via strength-building or something?

I contend that all of these so-called choices are suspect, because all of them are influenced by cultural pressures about what a woman is/should be, but I'm not going to say one is better than the other. But I'm interested in what y'all have to say, too!

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

I never made that implication!! I was just saying I would want to provoke discussion. Assuming that the person who was evening out was evening out in the big direction, which implied that was superior. I am so not explaining myself well.

I think smallifying is possibly less antifeminist because my perception is that the patriarchal pressure is to have big boobs, not small ones.

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[keryx.livejournal.com]

I may also be inferring this "reduction isn't bad" thing, because I've had this discussion with a bunch of feminists in the past - they thought only getting implants was problematic, and I still don't really see why. I'd like to understand better, even if only to refute the argument. ;)

Re: if you're still interested by this conversation...

[tartedelune.livejournal.com]

I generally feel like breast reduction shouldn't get carte blanche simply because it isn't part of the "big boobs are best" mentality. I think that the cosmentic surgery industry is endemic the cultural idea of "fixing" the body. I don't know how I feel about the issue of strain. It's hard to separate the health propaganda from actual information.

I think the bottom line for me is, cosmetic surgery is always part of a larger context of beauty standards but that doesn't mean that I believe it is always an anti-feminist choice. I can't think of how cosmetic surgery would ever be a feminist choice, but I can think of many times that I don't see surgery and feminism as antithetical. For me it basically comes down to the individual's motivation and situation.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

I can't either. There's a part of me that sees the woman who doesn't get the reconstruction/augmentation as brave and noble, but I don't think a woman should feel guilty if she wishes to get it.

I remember looking down at my scars from surgeries once, and making a "that looks weird" comment, and my mother saying "Well, if it bothers you, you can get plastic surgery." I didn't want to do this, and in fact, now I find those scars pretty in a way. I can't, though, really think of myself rebuking another woman for not getting them altered/reduced/whatevered. Even if she wants "pretty" legs for suspect reasons, scarring is another case where I think it's all just too complex to boil down to just that. Being obviously scarred means, in a sense, being in a different body than the one you're used to. There's all sorts of ways that can mess with your head. Feeling unpretty in precisely the culturally problematic way is one of them... but only one.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

One example: young children, whenever they see my legs, become worried and alarmed and point at my scars and ask questions I don't know how to answer, really. I don't have a big problem with this, but I can imagine it wearing on someone quite a lot. It bothers me quite a bit when it happens.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

I'm curious (or just nosy) - what's the deal with your legs?

Not that you have to answer, obviously. :) It just seems like you have a very similar perspective to a lot of fat folk who've experienced discrimination or just weird questions, and I'm always curious where people are coming from.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

Not that you have to answer, obviously. :) It just seems like you have a very similar perspective to a lot of fat folk who've experienced discrimination or just weird questions, and I'm always curious where people are coming from.

I have cerebral palsy, and when I was younger I had surgery to correct the way my leg bones had been pulled out of alignment by my muscles. This meant breaking and resetting both my femurs and putting pins in each leg to hold them together while it healed. That in turn meant lengthy scars on each thigh (since the metal plates went far down the bone.) If I wear a bathing suit, or don't wear long pants, my scars are quite obvious.

It's not that I feel discriminated against. It's just that very small children ask, and I don't know how to explain. "Surgery" is a scary concept. As is the idea of getting a scar like those I have, especially to a very young child. I tell them "I got hurt, but now I'm better," but I never know if it's the right thing to tell them.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, I definitely agree with you there.

I just sometimes worry about where the line is/should be when we see political problems with these kinds of choices. How exactly we should talk and think about them is a tightrope walk, that's for sure.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

Yes, very true. I try to maintain the perspective when I bring up such things that these are my ideals, and they can't encompass everyone's experiences in the real world. But I feel like we have to have something to strive for - for me, it's making every choice really a choice, as devoid of weight and pressure as possible.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

Word. That's really beautifully said.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

People get SO upset when you imply that the choice they made was not an independent, individual choice. I typically see two responses:

"You don't know me!!! I totally made this choice under my own power!!! How dare you tell me my choice is not a choice!!!"

and

"Well we DO live in this society so we HAVE to make choices to live in it so cope! You are fooling yourself if you think you can make choices in a vacuum."

I never know how to come back to these things. It's a conversation stopper, for me, to bring up the fact that someone's choice might have been influenced by our society and that if they consider that, they could see why others object to it.

I am blathering here, but it seems like there are two issues; one, whether the choice to (in this case) have some cosmetic surgery was made under pressure of patriarchy, and second, whether that choice feeds the machine or defies it or is simply an individual choice which "shouldn't" effect anyone else at all. (I'm playing devil's advocate to myself a little. I have only known one woman who actually had cosmetic surgery, and at the time I never spoke to her about it, but she said some defensive things about it. I'm dreading the day someone I care about decides to do something like this and I feel like I want to actually talk to them (i.e. confront) about it.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

I think people who say things like that are being stupidly resistant to reality and the whole feeding the machine thing. So on a certain level, I don't care if I stop a conversation with them. And if they contend that feminism has to support their "pure, free choice" just bc they're a woman, I will smack them down.

But the one thing that works when I don't want to stop the conversation is posing these things as questions. Like, "how do you feel your dieting is influenced by pressures on women?" or "would it change things if you had a daughter who was watching you do this?" - I have to be more polite than I may feel, but I've had some good conversations this way.