those who were seen dancing

ooh, those are cute shoes!

I know, we're supposed to be talking about socialization and norms and all that. But (e-speaking as a woman who wears Doc Martens to the office because I like footwear I can walk in) I think those flats are most excellent! (And certainly *one* of the reasons women wear varied and oft-impractical shoes is aesthetics, shared with other women...)

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Yes, absolutely. A lot of what started as male-gaze-edification is maintained as fashion and aesthetics. My last work team, for instance, was almost all women, all of whom shared the shoe thing - so anytime you came in with new shoes of a certain style, it was almost like what happens when a parent brings a baby into the office.

The part that's pure aesthetics and community-identification isn't a bad thing; it's just the other parts that are eeky.

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Yes, that's what I was being too inarticulate to quite get at! :-)

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libskrat

Beg to disagree, speaking as one who doesn't participate. The fashion-aesthetics thing can become as much of a straitjacket as the male-gaze thing.

Sexism isn't always something men do to women. Sometimes it's the expectations women hold of themselves and each other. Not that I have to tell anybody here that, of course.

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I think the problem comes when the community-identification becomes a form of forced conformity, as in the assumption that all women SHOULD wear heels (or substitute any "should" of your choosing).

It doesn't have to be that; the shared-aesthetics thing doesn't have to constrict.

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libskrat

No, you're right, it doesn't, but there's an inclusion-exclusion thing to consider also.

Not that (being childfree) I'm any stranger to being excluded from groups of women. But this has IME been one more thing that has set me apart, sometimes when I didn't really want to be. Even when nobody would ever have suggested that I go out and buy fashionable shoes, or get myself knocked up.

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snidegrrl.livejournal.com

I am totally with you on this one. But then, I have never worked anywhere where shoes were an issue. Acutally, when I was in customer support, my male coworker showed me his grip-fast 20 hole boots and I ran right out and got some of those.

What really stops me is the "angle to the ground" issue. I don't see how I can ever accept an aesthetic that causes me to be more vulnerable and possibly mis-shape my own feet. (My grandmother's feet were ultimately bent permanently into high-heel shape and could never wear flat shoes again. This makes me slightly biased, having seen this firsthand.)

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Really? Wow, I've never seen that happen - owwwwww!! Though I will say that the clunky platform heel thing did wonders for me after a knee injury (sustained while wearing flat shoes). But my idea of an attractive heeled shoe and your grandmother's are probably quite different.

Still. It bothers me to think that I'm contributing to an ideal that damages people's feet, even if I'm not personally injured by it. I'm not sure what I'm prepared to do about it, though.

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snidegrrl.livejournal.com

I don't know if she had chronic pain b/c of the bent foot thing or not. She wasn't one to talk about it. I will note that she worked in retail and sales and real estate much of her life. She was always on her feet. Maybe it wouldn't happen to someone in a sedentary profession. BUT STILL. We do lots of things that ain't natural in the name of aesthetics, but this one is just so danged sexist I can't abide it. (Hypocrite alert: I do own several pairs of heels. I wear them to weddings.)

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My dad's wife used to feel physically more comfortable in heels b/c that's what she always wore to work (as a schoolteacher). She had the highest arches I'd ever seen. But she is retired now and has happily made the transition to bare feet... I should check out her arches and see if they have gotten lower.

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She probably didn't have chronic pain, because the body adapts by halting pain signals and keeping tension in weird places. But ow, from the perspective of not being able to change shoes or walk barefoot or whatever.

And ditto what you said on the sexism front.

Though I will on principle argue the statement that walking at an angle is unnatural - done barefoot, it's actually pretty fast to run on your toes.

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But the whole body is at a different angle when running, as opposed to standing or walking.

It interests me that you find wearing heels more comfortable for your knees -- they tend to make one arch the back more, which I personally find uncomfortable for my lower back, but I never pondered the effect on the knees.

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Valid point - running is a very different thing, as is dancing and... well, most other things you do on your toes. And being in heels isn't exactly the same as on the balls of your feet anyhow.

The knee thing is that a solid, platformy heel gave me foot support while engaging my knees, so it built my tendons and muscles back up after a major dislocation. The platform sole, combined with ages of dancery training, also tends to push your weight evenly on your feet, so less back arch. I find it more comfortable for short bursts of walking, but hellacious for standing still.

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That makes sense. I definitely find chunky, platformy heels more comfortable than the spindly kind... I am honestly stunned when I see women wearing spike heels to commute to work. They must have *way* better balance than I!

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swartzdk.livejournal.com

Both of your Grandmothers had the same problem Seems that 50 or 50 years of heels permenantly shortens the tendons in your legs. My mother even had to have high heeled (wedge) slippers.

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You mean that people wanted to stick a bottle in the shoes because it's interrupting work?

</ childfree rant>

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Those are cute shoes. And there are plenty of other people who wear shoes like that in my office - and not just for casual days. Which means that my shoe fixation isn't even remotely about office convention, btw.

The tall thing for women is a very interesting standard. Models are tall and wear heels. But while that may be presented as an ideal... not so much if you dwarf a man, huh?

Speaking of height, part of my thing may have been going from a tall middle schooler to a short adult (I'm 5'1"); going from having a certain height and sense of bigness to everyone else being bigger was pretty weird.

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libskrat

*shrug* I don't know what a "cute shoe" is, I guess. Because I think of these shoes as pretty darn ugly. Especially in size 11.

I do have opinions about attractiveness in shoes. Very dated ones, I fear; I haven't seen a genuinely attractive women's dress shoe in shoe-store windows for years, seems like, and a lot of stuff that I see (dress shoes and other shoes) is just, yuck. So whatever's driving my shoe aesthetic, it ain't fashion.

And shoe aesthetics lost out an awfully long time ago to blister, corn, and bunion avoidance. Life as a size 11. And yes, I hate shoe shopping with a wild passion. :)

Come to think of it, anyone who disapproves of my choice of footwear can -- come shoe-shopping with me, see just how bad it really is!

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Considering that I am currently wearing these with a dress, I am probably not someone whose tastes should be taken too seriously.

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I would totally wear those with a skirt, albeit not at work, if only they came big enough for my calves.

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Those are awesome! I just wish I wasn't so preppy-looking (and that my boss didn't have his stick shoved so high up his ass) so that I could pull those off.

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hee hee!

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So, what is an attractive shoe, by your definition? Cause I think your shoes are cute in a wholesome, functional way.

I can guess how crappy shoe shopping would be for you just by the sizes in most stores - clearly, a 10 is considered the absolute max by someone in the shoe design & sales chain. It's roughly the equivalent of me trying to find a pair of well-fitted pants, except badly fitted pants won't actually injure me.

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I LOVE those shoes! If I wouldn't get fired for them (our dress code specifically says no sandals) I'd wear them every day - especially since I'm in freaking Houston.

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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally, I feel more comfortable in jeans and sneakers. At least I can deal with people being assholes to me in my own clothes.

And I like you too...which is why I'm glad you friended me also :)

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Heee! Your icon is so appropriate to this discussion.

It's interesting you mentioned the "your own clothes" distinction, because I tend to think of one set of clothes as a work costume and the other as a play costume - but neither one as my "natural state" or whatever. Hmmm.

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Ah, yes. The foot-tired Santa Claus which will be replaced by some sort of New Year's icon and soon to be replaced by my kitty again.

Hmmm. Would you say that you're a comfortable nudist? I tried that lifestyle for a short while and wasn't comfortable with myself being nude although I didn't care if others were. I guess that's why I feel so close to my clothes. I'm just not comfortable with my own nudity.

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Hmm. I'm neither completely comfortable nor completely uncomfortable naked. I was an artist's model in college for awhile and was fine posing naked, but I often feel weird moving around and doing stuff without clothes on. How's THAT for a vague answer, huh?

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