i'm having a weird feminist week, i think.

[keryx]

There are times when I see gender issues everywhere. And there are times when I see most of those gender issues as incidental to something else.

This week seems to be the latter. I've written a bit on my blog lately about odd gender differences at the Olympics (Women's gymnastics? What's with the sixties leftover dance moves? Why are Frankie and Annette at the Olympics?) and the thing with the woman who got all famous by blogging about having sex with some guys in DC (Who cares? Isn't women seeing sex as just sex kind of a good thing?) and in both cases not been big on the Larger Cultural Context.

I have more questions than answers most of the time, anyhow. That's not a bad thing.

Comments

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

The thing that pissed me off about the sex blog person is that she was fired and reviled, while guess what the guys got? It wasn't wholly clear to me from the article I read, but certainly not the same. The article I read in the post seemed to want to declare SOMEone culpable for the horrible affront to society, but not the men. Whatever!

Now, that said when I read the article I felt massively judgemental about this person's actions. Uh hello, don't sleep with married people. I mean unless you have permission from all parties. Cripes.

[missmeridian.livejournal.com]

ditto.

i also kinda wanted her to be a bit smarter - she seemed like such an airhead, which doesn't really match the sexual-liberation icon thing.

i mean, i'm sure she's in fact very intelligent, and some of the dumb things she said certainly made for a funnier blog, but jeez.

[rackletang.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I'm so over stupid people. Sigh.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

I have to go with you both on this one... but then, the stuff I've read also was structured to give her this "Like, I totally slept with that guy!" persona. So it feels like manufactured stupidity, even worse.

[missmeridian.livejournal.com]

hey there rackletang. you seem cool, and weirdly live in my neck of the woods - let's be friends!

or something. am unsure how this works. is it proper to ask first before friending?

[rackletang.livejournal.com]

Heehee, I'll friend you back. (I have no idea what the etiquette is on LJ, I'm not sure it matters...)

[keryx.livejournal.com]

See, I didn't feel at all judgemental about her actions, other than screwing over her own partner. It's married people's responsibility not to sleep with other people, not the other way around. I wonder whether as many people would be as judgemental if the person sleeping with married people was a guy.

And she got fired, but also got famousish, which is probably a decent trade considering the crappy low-paing nature of the job.

[missmeridian.livejournal.com]

i so agree re: married people's responsibility. how is this difficult to understand? gah!

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

I don't understand!

[missmeridian.livejournal.com]

i guess i'm just appalled by the middle-aged, gee, let's destroy my family and my kid's perception of me because i'm tired and bored and why the hell not if everyone else is doing it?

if you find yourself crushing on a married man (fer instance) you can A) say, too bad, whatever, dude is married; or B) think to yerself, well, clearly his marriage is falling apart, and that has nothing to do with me, and i like this guy, and just want something that isn't marriage and commitment but just a casual thing, and ooh maybe he'll pay my bills, that would be nice, so ok.

i don't know that i can really fault grrl B, although i would hope i turn out to be grrl A.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

huh. i hope it doesn't make me an asshole that i can totally fault grrl B without hesitating. :(

[libskrat]

If it helps any, I don't think it makes you an asshole.

That, or we're both assholes, 'cuz I can totally fault grrl B too. Like it or not, there's a third person involved -- the guy's wife. Grrl B is utterly dissin' her.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

Whew, my whole image of CavLec is fundamentally altered... I never pictured you as a sayer of "dissin". ;)

See, I don't think anyone here is an asshole - not y'all and not hypothetical girl B. There is much ambiguity.

[libskrat]

Well, I just used the word that covers the case, yo.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

Really? I feel like it's anyone who's having the sex's responsibility. Interesting that you make that distinction.

I think what I mean is: I find it abhorrent for someone to have sex with a married person KNOWING the person was married and that their partner would not approve. I find the married person's actions in that context abhorrent as well. There is disrespect on both parts and I hold both responsible. If the person was lied to or the marital status was hidden, then I don't really expect everyone to do a background check on the people they have sex with.

Any hoo, I'm with Miss M above, I was kind of sad that she came off looking so un-savvy. Whoever's responsible.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, you have a responsibility to your partner to follow whatever the terms of your relationship are; that's a clear agreement between 2 people. As a person in general, you should also be nice and generally cooperative with others' relationship rules, but you didn't make any agreements or promises. So the ultimate responsibility for screwing over someone lies only with the person who screwed them over.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

Golly. I find myself very much not on the same page, not that I don't respect your thoughts and enjoy hearing them. As far as I'm concerned, both people are responsible for wronging person 3, assuming both were aware of the circumstances. I think the difference is where you see being cooperative with others' relationship rules as an option, I see it as a requirement.

[keryx.livejournal.com]

The difference in our opinions is really only a matter of degree, though - I still think that not getting involved with someone who's already partnered is a bad idea. It's just that when the wronged partner looks for someone to blame, it should always be to the person they had an agreement with.

My views get really convoluted if a friendship is involved, because I tend to think close friendships constitute an even more unbreakable contract than a partnership. So, in that case, the friend who sleeps with your partner is much, much worse than the partner, though they share the blame.

[snidegrrl.livejournal.com]

Yes, I can certainly agree that it's impossible to make blanket statements of blame (you think I'd learn!) and that there are degrees in every situation. Degrees of blame, too. There's "man that was kinda sketchy" and then there's "holy crap dude, that's just wrong!" so it can be evaluated on a case by case basis. So my general statements can be taken with a grain of salt, although it does indicate that I probably come from a default of "both parties guilty until proven innocent".

[libskrat]

Sorry, we'll have to part ways here. One may not have made any specific agreements to stay out of a given marriage, but it's impossible to make specific agreements with every marriage in creation -- that's why there's a general rule "don't boff married people unless both boffee and boffee's spouse are cool with it."

Circumstances alter cases, of course; I'm not going to blame a secretary whose married boss took out a major power trip on her. But in general? Don't boff my husband without asking me, please. Doubleplusuncool, and yes, I will blame you as well as him.

Now, I'm pretty sure my husband hasn't boffed anybody but me. He has, however, been headhunted after a fashion (the story is told third-person, but it's me and him, as I explained later), so I will admit to having some skin in this game. Those tracking bias take note.

[firecat]

I know nothing about the specific case, but I think it's everybody's responsibility to avoid contributing to hurting other people. Of course one can't do much to avoid hurt in a lot of cases, but not having sex with people who have monogamy agreements with other people is a gimme.

(That doesn't mean I believe in punishing people who do it, but if they are walking into the situation with their eyes open, I don't have any more respect for them than I have for the person who's breaking their monogamy promise.)

And yes, I've done it, so I'm no better than the rest.

And yes, my view applies to people of all genders.